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Ferrocement Educational Forum  |  Ferrocement Discussions  |  Mixes  |  Topic: Fly ash « previous next »
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Author Topic: Fly ash  (Read 10141 times)
Ringo
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« on: July 18, 2011, 06:39:55 PM »

Why is it so hard to find fly ash in small amounts?

I have no use for a truck load and no way to store it either.

I just want to do some testing and maybe build something using it.

I am in So. Ca. and need a few 5 gallon bucketfuls to test.

Any suggestions?

thanks
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Green Dog
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 07:46:51 PM »

Beg some from your local ready mix plant. I have access to some white silica fume it runs about $1 per pound I think. Look up www.whitesilicafume.com this is a Friend of mine.
Good luck
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 07:55:31 PM by Green Dog » Logged

Hydration is the answer.
Ringo
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 09:02:17 PM »

I was hoping flyash would reduce the cost.

Portland is only about 6 cents a pound.

What's a good price for flyash?
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Paul Sarnstrom
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2011, 09:56:35 PM »

One of  the issues with buying small amounts of flyash, i.e. bagful quantities is that someone or some business needs a bagging facility in addition to moving and storing large amounts of material to be bagged.The majority of redi-mix plants have no bagging facilities. My closest source for bagged flyash is 300+ miles away in Denver or 350 miles away in Salt Lake. The pre-bagged flyash I bought last year out of Denver was almost identical to the price of portland cement.

As Green Dog suggested the easiest way to get a couple buckets full is to go to your local redi-mix plant. Bring your own buckets with lids and a dozen donuts to give to the mixmaster or whoever actually gets the flyash for you. My local redi-mix plant helped me out in this way two years ago and for them it's really an inconvenience so be sure they are not busy filling a bunch of concrete  trucks when you show up. Since they ship more batches out in the morning, afternoons are a better time to show up.

Also if you are in southern California there should be bagged flyash in the L.A. area. Boral is one of the biggest, possibly the biggest seller of flyash in the U.S. Do a google or other search for boral + flyash + southern california and see what pops up. It took me three emails and a couple phone calls doing that search for Colorado to come up with the retail source in Denver.

Paul
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Paul Sarnstrom
philb
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 06:33:14 AM »

If you can find out who is the local Boral Materials rep in your area, he can ship you a 5 gallon bucket as a professional sample. That's your best bet.

I had to travel ~800 miles to buy mine in bags. If you buy it by the palletized ton and have a way to haul it, it is available for about 25 cents per pound. The freight would have cost me about $500 per pallet.

I called three terminals in OKC, OK and all three would sell me all I want...in bulk only. The concrete companies nor the terminals would not think of opening their valves with a 5 gallon bucket in hand or even a pickup truck. They said the flow would bury a pickup truck by the time the switch could be switched on and off again. Semi trucks are filled in 14 seconds! Fly ash is very light and will become airborne in the slightest breeze. If any ash is spilled, there is a big EPA fine to pay plus private lawsuits. In S. Cal the laws are much more strict than here.

Remember to use a good quality mask when handling fly ash and try to stay upwind.  Three to ten microns is the average diameter. Health professionals think your lungs cannot expel particles less that 10 microns. I know the risks and will use it until it is no longer available though, because it makes the mix so hard and durable.
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Chris Glasspool
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 08:01:45 AM »

Hi All,

Boral type F, 3 micron is sold in 25 pound bags. Home Depot carries it in some places but not mine. I have gotten 5 gallon too, but then I was a serious potential buyer. I have seen websites catering to the concrete counter-top crafts people selling flyash and other ingredients in small packaging.

- chris
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Chris Glasspool
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 08:52:54 AM »

One alternative that I have seen and am curious about is this product:
 http://store.concreteexchange.com/CHENG-Concrete-Online-Store_5/GFRC-Tools-and-Equipment/VCAS-160-from-Vitro-Minerals

I'm almost out of Flyash, and would like to find an alternative unless I can procure Flyash easier. Just getting a pozzolan isn't an alternative because Flyash is unique in that it improves handling, and can reduce water content. VCAS makes claims about improved handling, but does it?

- chris
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Chris Glasspool
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 01:08:57 PM »

http://www.ball-consulting-ltd.com/dataSheets/GFRC/VCAS%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

Here is their flier on the VCAS material. Anyone who tries it, please let me know.

- chris
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Ringo
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 05:54:04 PM »

Hey I found some bags of flyash in So. Ca.

They just sent me this email:

>1345 E. Philadelphia St, Pomona Ca. 91766
>Each bag is $15.50.  check, cash Credit card...909-627-9066
>Ask for Diane and set up a pickup.  Please leave us a business card.

>Certified Concrete Sustainability & LCA Expert
>Class F & Class C fly ash   /  Silica Fume
>Fly Ash....it's not what it IS, it's what it DOES !


Those are 100 pound bags.
They also sell bulk.
They have it all over the Country
Here is their website:

http://www.flyash.com/flyashconcrete.asp

Here is the salesman's email address, his name is Drew:

ddecarlo@headwaters.com
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 06:27:06 PM by Ringo » Logged
Ringo
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 02:57:31 PM »

Now, there are lots of mix designs with flyash on the internet.

It is kinda overwhelming to wade through all that stuff.

Can someone get me started with their personal experiences?

Do you use flyash as an additive for improved performance?
Do you add flyash as a replacement for some of the cement?

How much do you add and what changes have you seen in strength, price or workability?

Thanks for any input.
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Chris Glasspool
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 03:08:58 PM »

Ringo,

FA is used in FC as an added amount of generally between 10 and 20 % to the amount of cement used. In concrete recipes it seems to be a replacement of cement used amount, and when used in big cement pours it can be up to a 50% replacement of cement used, typically to help cool down the pour, and use up waste surpluses of FA.

- chris
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Ringo
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2011, 08:57:15 AM »

Ringo,

FA is used in FC as an added amount of generally between 10 and 20 % to the amount of cement used. In concrete recipes it seems to be a replacement of cement used amount, and when used in big cement pours it can be up to a 50% replacement of cement used, typically to help cool down the pour, and use up waste surpluses of FA.

- chris

Hi Chris;

Flyash is much lighter than than cement.
Are your percentages in volume or weight?

thanks
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Chris Glasspool
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2011, 09:20:42 AM »

Ringo,

Weight. I mark my buckets with a permanent marker after weighing. Flyash needs to mix with the cement as it coats the aggregate, so I have always used a mix order that puts the flyash in front of the cement.

- chris
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Paul Sarnstrom
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2011, 06:51:09 PM »

Hi All,

Regarding classes of flyash: you will see class 'F' and class 'C' offered for sale. Class 'C' is considered cementitious and will set when exposed to moisture. Class 'F' is considered non-cementitious as it does not set when in the presence of moisture. This makes class 'F' easier to store. Class 'C' can be used as well just be sure to store it in airtight containers.

 I like 5 gal. plastic buckets with a gasketed lid for storing unused portland and they work well for flyash as well. Both classes will give you improved handling characteristics and a denser finished mortar. They both 'eat up' or react with free lime when the portland reaction takes place during curing.

Regarding uses of flyash: I like it as it improves handling characteristics of the mortar. For me the mortar is a little creamier, it's easier to embed mesh into it and it finishes nicely. The other thing I really appreciate is the denseness of the cured mortar. Again 'denseness' is a relative term.

The best way to experience it for yourself is to make two batches of mortar using the same sand, cement and water ratios, one mix has some flyash substituted for some of the portland cement and in the other mix use straight portland. Use the two mortars and compare the handling characteristics. Use the two mixes in the same way to do the same things and cure the FC and/or mortar samples carefully. Compare the surface hardness and denseness of the two samples when finished.

Paul
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 02:31:07 PM by Paul Sarnstrom » Logged

Paul Sarnstrom
Paul Sarnstrom
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2011, 08:26:29 AM »

Hello All,

A correction to my last post: In my previous post in this thread I msitakenly reversed the definitions for class 'C' and class 'F' flyash.

The class 'C' is the cementitious variety and the class F is the non-cementitious variety. Thanks Chris and Grant for catching my error.

I have edited my previous post and corrected the error.

Paul
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 08:30:14 AM by Paul Sarnstrom » Logged

Paul Sarnstrom
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